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and president obama choosing to look mostly at jim lehrer or looking down. and what message do the viewers at home pick up on that. >> governor romney's body language was pretty good and that expression on his face which was an expression, those of white house follow him was familiar w as kind of a half smile, not a smirk-- . >> stephen: yes, brit, mitt had a confident half smile, like this. (laughter) not a smirk like this-- (laughter) and definitely not a big bright rick human smile like this-- hume smile like this (laughter) so ultimately, folks, choosing the leader of the free world is clearly all about how it looks. so for those of you who did not have an hour and a half to waste last night, here's how it looks. >> we welcome president obama and governor romney. (applause) (laughter) (applause) thank you and good night. >> stephen: pretty much captures it. now of course a lot of belly acres on the left, incidentally bellyaching not covered under romney's plan, insisted on paying attention to the words they said, and pointed out that mitt changing almost
and president obama choosing to look mostly at jim lehrer or looking down. and what message do the viewers at home pick up on that. >> governor romney's body language was pretty good and that expression on his face which was an expression, those of white house follow him was familiar w as kind of a half smile, not a smirk-- . >> stephen: yes, brit, mitt had a confident half smile, like this. (laughter) not a smirk like this-- (laughter) and definitely not a big bright rick human...
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jim, why does this video reappear now and how does it pair some importance in this campaign? >> it would have been hundred times more impactful if it came out in 2007. when people could have played it out, that president george w. bush went to new orleans a few weeks after the hurricane and committed $125 billion to help new orleans, anybody that has been near new orleans knows an enormous amount of federal money which the president chose not to talk about. >> jon: didn't he in the same speech speaking glowing words about reverend wright? >> i think he was said unapologetically christian and black. but the president doesn't normally mention race when he gives a speech like that. that made it different but i don't think it makes it a scandal. it's the level of 47% statement which is what i think the republicans were trying to do by dragging out this on tape. it didn't work. i think it fell flat. >> i would agree with judy. remember that the president also said about new orleans and katrina that the administration was colorblind in terms of that, but what i have to say, they co
jim, why does this video reappear now and how does it pair some importance in this campaign? >> it would have been hundred times more impactful if it came out in 2007. when people could have played it out, that president george w. bush went to new orleans a few weeks after the hurricane and committed $125 billion to help new orleans, anybody that has been near new orleans knows an enormous amount of federal money which the president chose not to talk about. >> jon: didn't he in the...
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jim lehrer kept getting kanye'd and that's his own problem. >> did jim lehrer get kanye'd? >> yes, at one point he took the first and last words of two segments in a row just by talking over jim lehrer and not letting him interject. but romney did well performancewise, but we can unpack the substance of his remarks and find them awfully wanting. >> we have two more to go in the vice presidential debate for sure. msnbc's contributors ron reagan and meghan mccain, thank you for waking up with me. >>> fact checkers are having a good day today. they are busy. they need a lot of coffee to keep up. >> he took some short-term gain for long-term pain. last night if mitt romney was talking -- >> the obama campaign in full damage control mode after last night's debate. a lot of facts were being thrown around. more fact checks and half-truths. we want to get your thought on the debate, was mitt romney's debate performance the october surprise? weigh in on twitte twitter @thomasaroberts. [ man ] ring ring... progresso this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how doe
jim lehrer kept getting kanye'd and that's his own problem. >> did jim lehrer get kanye'd? >> yes, at one point he took the first and last words of two segments in a row just by talking over jim lehrer and not letting him interject. but romney did well performancewise, but we can unpack the substance of his remarks and find them awfully wanting. >> we have two more to go in the vice presidential debate for sure. msnbc's contributors ron reagan and meghan mccain, thank you for...
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ja, ja, ja. >> that's just a noise. >> jim, jim, jim, would you shut the [ bleep ] up. >> that was a facsimile i think. more from the debate aftermath. the big bird nonsense continues. how did the former gop candidates feel about the mitt romney pledge to stop funding for pbs if elected president? first, rick santorum last night on cnn. >> would you kill big bird? >> well, as a matter of fact, i voted to kill big bird in the past. it doesn't mean i don't like big bird. you can kill things and still like them. maybe to eat them, i don't know. >> you can kill things but still like them? very interesting. >>> on to newt gingrich who went to one zoo after another during his presidential campaign. newt was on cnn last night with former michigan governor jennifer granholm, an active obama supporter, of course. let's take a look. >> newt gingrich, should big bird be killed or not? >> that's total baloney. big bird makes millions and millions of dollars annually. >> save big bird! >> it's a commercially profitable show. i would save big bird by liberating big bird from the bureaucracy. >> je
ja, ja, ja. >> that's just a noise. >> jim, jim, jim, would you shut the [ bleep ] up. >> that was a facsimile i think. more from the debate aftermath. the big bird nonsense continues. how did the former gop candidates feel about the mitt romney pledge to stop funding for pbs if elected president? first, rick santorum last night on cnn. >> would you kill big bird? >> well, as a matter of fact, i voted to kill big bird in the past. it doesn't mean i don't like big...
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i think jim is right from a political perspective. if you haven't done it yet and you've taken as much flack for it as you have, why do it now because now you're still going to take all the flack for not releasing details all the way up until now -- >> and what happened is actually mitt romney did try to sort of -- he provided that answer about a week ago when he said, well, maybe we'll have a bucket and he did this -- and he speculated -- >> 17,000. >> all of a sudden said, okay -- >> they backed off of that and how did they back off on it? saying we're not going to do any kind of redistributive kind -- you know who got angry about that. i think because he had a good performance people will take a second look. >> it's part of the second look. all right. let's end on a shameless plug now. shameless plug, happy note. jim, go. >> my son is getting a good citizenship award in his first month in kindergarten next week. aren't i fun, loveable, warm guy? >> my son needs to know he's supposed to get an excellent and not a good on his behavio
i think jim is right from a political perspective. if you haven't done it yet and you've taken as much flack for it as you have, why do it now because now you're still going to take all the flack for not releasing details all the way up until now -- >> and what happened is actually mitt romney did try to sort of -- he provided that answer about a week ago when he said, well, maybe we'll have a bucket and he did this -- and he speculated -- >> 17,000. >> all of a sudden said,...
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sufficient in that stage, meaning the president didn't need to be there for romney to put on that show and jim lehrer didn't need to be there, it was a romney control of that space and that physical control of that space which was so dominant. i don't think we have seen anything like it before. and in probably a presidential debate. >> rose: we continue request mark halperin of time magazine and benjamin brafman, a leading trial attorney. the mitt romney was on display last night is the one that his friends and family and a few journalists who have had access to him over the years have seen before. that guy can win this race. the question is, can jesus stain it beyond one night. >> in any number of areas what governor romney has done as he said laid, said last night he laid out the broad principles but now you have gotten specific about the good parts, the carrot youill and very vague about the stick. >> obama is brilliant in a speech, a peach is different than when you are in an argument and when you are in an argument if you don't bring passion to your argument the other side is generally go
sufficient in that stage, meaning the president didn't need to be there for romney to put on that show and jim lehrer didn't need to be there, it was a romney control of that space and that physical control of that space which was so dominant. i don't think we have seen anything like it before. and in probably a presidential debate. >> rose: we continue request mark halperin of time magazine and benjamin brafman, a leading trial attorney. the mitt romney was on display last night is the...
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jim angle has a fact check on last night's most heated issue, tax policy. ed henry has the obama campaign reaction. and we begin with carl cameron on the first debate. good evening, carl. >> hi, brett. the romney campaign could hardly be more excited about what happened last night. in fact, since the debate ended, they say they've been getting two donations per second as a measure of mitt romney's success the morning after is general election debate debut against the president, mitt romney made a surprise appearance to a thrilled and leaved audience of conservatives. >> last night i thought was a great opportunity for the american people to see two very different visions for the country. >> he reiterated a new attack. >> trickle down government that the president proposes is one where he will raise taxes on small business, which will kill jobs. i instead want to keep taxes down on small business so we can create jobs. >> romney awoke to rave reviews across the country and democrats admit he delivered. >> virtually everything you said about my tax plan is in
jim angle has a fact check on last night's most heated issue, tax policy. ed henry has the obama campaign reaction. and we begin with carl cameron on the first debate. good evening, carl. >> hi, brett. the romney campaign could hardly be more excited about what happened last night. in fact, since the debate ended, they say they've been getting two donations per second as a measure of mitt romney's success the morning after is general election debate debut against the president, mitt...
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what i was frustrated is failure to use the synapse to pop out and sitting here talking you and ji jim lehr about the pbs funding which is okay and cute and fun to talk about, how about the auto industry, i rescued it and you would let it go bankrupt. >> i am if for equal pay of women, he didn't bring up things and let romney get by with some really distracting and really unclear, in fact, untrue statements about healthcare where he said i am for coverage for preexisting conditions, his people later on said he wasn't and he said, in fact, before that he never was really for covering preexisting conditions unless, you know, it is paid for, ahead of time during, you know, continuing coverage, and a couple of times in the last week he said things like well if you get sick we won't let you die in your apartment and get you to er and yet came on last night talking about a national health plan he had which he really doesn't have. i thought he got away with a lot of things showing sympathy for social security recipients when in the tape recently exposed it was clear he had no sympathy for peo
what i was frustrated is failure to use the synapse to pop out and sitting here talking you and ji jim lehr about the pbs funding which is okay and cute and fun to talk about, how about the auto industry, i rescued it and you would let it go bankrupt. >> i am if for equal pay of women, he didn't bring up things and let romney get by with some really distracting and really unclear, in fact, untrue statements about healthcare where he said i am for coverage for preexisting conditions, his...
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not going to be easy for jim lehrer. even if romney won't answer for them, it needs to be spelled out loud and clear to the american people who have been lied to. mitt romney has not been straight with americans on where he stands and where he wants to take the country and there's no better platform than for the president to take him to the house. how can you expect him to be straight with you as president when he can't even run his own campaign? get your cell phones out. tonight's question, will mitt romney continue his campaign of lies at tomorrow's debate? text a for yes or b or no. you can always go to our blog. we'll bring you the results later on in the show. joining me is robert gibbs, senior obama campaign adviser. great to have you with us tonight. there's so much meat on the bones here. we have laid out all of the distortions and the lies that we have seen from the romney campaign. there's a lot of target-rich environment for president obama. what about this tax plan. is president obama obligated to supporters
not going to be easy for jim lehrer. even if romney won't answer for them, it needs to be spelled out loud and clear to the american people who have been lied to. mitt romney has not been straight with americans on where he stands and where he wants to take the country and there's no better platform than for the president to take him to the house. how can you expect him to be straight with you as president when he can't even run his own campaign? get your cell phones out. tonight's question,...
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jim lehrer's questions may alter the course of events. we don't know if romney's going to get to use his zingers. we don't know if obama's going to press the 47% issue. i don't think anybody knows what's going to happen. >> as a moderator, not only did you make history, you had to walk a very line, but what sort of pitfalls do moderators have to be wary of? >> well, you have, you can't, you can't think about what people are going to say about you. i tried to do my job as a good journalist, to be fair and to be objective and to be professional. and to seek the truth. i employed those attributes as a reporter and despite how professional i thought it was an how fair i thought i was, i was accused of making george bush look bad and of making clinton look good, which was completely false. clinton did his thing on his own. and the public saw his warmth and his ability to connect with people and they liked that. george bush blew that question you showed a part of. that was the good part of his answer, but when he first heard the question, he wa
jim lehrer's questions may alter the course of events. we don't know if romney's going to get to use his zingers. we don't know if obama's going to press the 47% issue. i don't think anybody knows what's going to happen. >> as a moderator, not only did you make history, you had to walk a very line, but what sort of pitfalls do moderators have to be wary of? >> well, you have, you can't, you can't think about what people are going to say about you. i tried to do my job as a good...
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. >> jim, i still have 30 seconds. >> i still need to keep -- >> na-na-na. >> i think that's a little -- >> i think it's a little weird you're here still. you can just leave and do whatever you want. >> i'm the moderator here. >> jim, i'm going to have to ask you to stop talking. >> oh -- >> yeah -- >> oh -- >> you're a useless human being. >> tonight, jimmy welcomes katie couric. that's "late night with jimmy fallon" weeknights at 12:35. i have to watch that entire clip all the way through. >>> all right. entertainment news. let's check it out. despite negative reviews, liam neeson's thriller "taken 2" is expected to take. top spot. tim burton's stop-motion animation "frankenweenie" is expected to take in about $17 million. "pitch perfect" could open to the tune of around $16.5 million. >>> other headlines in entertainment, barbara walters said mariah carey told her she's beefed up security after fellow judge nicki minaj was overheard saying if she had a gun she'd shoot her. minaj denied the story. >>> daryl hannah was arrested as well. >>> south korean rapper psy decided to take his
. >> jim, i still have 30 seconds. >> i still need to keep -- >> na-na-na. >> i think that's a little -- >> i think it's a little weird you're here still. you can just leave and do whatever you want. >> i'm the moderator here. >> jim, i'm going to have to ask you to stop talking. >> oh -- >> yeah -- >> oh -- >> you're a useless human being. >> tonight, jimmy welcomes katie couric. that's "late night with jimmy...
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>> well, it's hard to imagine that somebody, either jim lehrer or the president himself, won't bring up the 47% video because it has been devastating to romney. obama has used it in ads and it plays into the perception of romney as a very rich guy who is completely out of touch with ordinary voters. however, i can't imagine that romney hasn't are practiced responses to that. he's already had an ad where he sits down, faces the camera, he tries to assure voters that he wants to help 100% of americans, everybody. but the danger for romney is seeming fake or false when he tries to connect. he has, no doubt, practiced a lot, rehearsed a lot. he has a lot of answers already planned but can he seem genuine when he's given that answer -- those answers as something to watch out for? >> now, erin, the 47%, according to all polling, has really crushed romney. the latest poll shows 45% of americans said it gave them a more negative view of romney. now the polls show 55% had a negative reaction. so he has to deal with it if it comes up and it's likely to come up. you heard cynthia say that he's
>> well, it's hard to imagine that somebody, either jim lehrer or the president himself, won't bring up the 47% video because it has been devastating to romney. obama has used it in ads and it plays into the perception of romney as a very rich guy who is completely out of touch with ordinary voters. however, i can't imagine that romney hasn't are practiced responses to that. he's already had an ad where he sits down, faces the camera, he tries to assure voters that he wants to help 100%...
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i'm jim kramer and i will see you tomorrow. >>> this morning on "early today," mile high showdown. as president obama and mitt romney prepare for tonight's crucial debate, our brand new poll numbers show where they stand. >>> mid-air scare. another incident of loose seats on an american airlines flight, and now the company says it knows why. >>> and shock value. daredevil magician david blaine goes high voltage in his latest stunt. captions paid for by nbc-universal television >>> good morning. i'm lynn berry. today we begin with a high stakes debate. all eyes turn to denver for tonight's first presidential debate of the 2012 race, and a new nbc news "wall street journal" poll shows president obama is holding on to his national lead, but not by much. 49% of likely voters favor the president while 46% prefer mitt romney. that's only a 3% edge for obama, which is within the survey's margin of error, but when it comes to a poll of registered voters the president widens his lead over romney to 7 points, 51% to 44. and, finally, four in ten surveyed now say the nation is headed in the r
i'm jim kramer and i will see you tomorrow. >>> this morning on "early today," mile high showdown. as president obama and mitt romney prepare for tonight's crucial debate, our brand new poll numbers show where they stand. >>> mid-air scare. another incident of loose seats on an american airlines flight, and now the company says it knows why. >>> and shock value. daredevil magician david blaine goes high voltage in his latest stunt. captions paid for by...
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>> i'm sorry, jim, i'm going to stop this subsidy to pbs. i'm going to stop other things. i like pbs. i love big bird. >> let's not. let's let him respond. >> i get the last word. let me make this comment. >> nope. come on, mr. president, give us a peek under the hood. >> five week before the election he's saying that his big, bold idea is never mind. is the reason that governor romney is keeping all these plans to replace secret because they're too good? is it because that somehow middle class a families are going to benefit too much? ♪ i guess you're just what i needed ♪ >>> we begin with the president criticized as being less than effective last night by hyperventilating pundits across the board, but now getting his own chance to put a spin on the first presidential debate. fresh off last night's face-off, the president is hitting the trail in key swing states. he's just touched down in madison, wisconsin, for a rally within the hour. >>> and earlier this afternoon the president described his own complete and utter surprise at the man he met last night. >> when i go
>> i'm sorry, jim, i'm going to stop this subsidy to pbs. i'm going to stop other things. i like pbs. i love big bird. >> let's not. let's let him respond. >> i get the last word. let me make this comment. >> nope. come on, mr. president, give us a peek under the hood. >> five week before the election he's saying that his big, bold idea is never mind. is the reason that governor romney is keeping all these plans to replace secret because they're too good? is it...
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jim, it's great to see you. i recommend the article to people. it really is great. this wrapped up this hour of "jansing & co." thomas roberts is up next. good morning. >>> good morning, everybody. the agenda next hour, we are expecting president obama to react to this stunning new jobs report showing the unemployment rate shopping to 7.8%. we are also going to hear live remarks from mitt romney on the campaign trail. both of the candidates facing off in virginia today. >>> is this the real october surprise? these numbers. and there are already some accusations that the white house is cooking the books to win this presidential election. we break that down for you. and then battling for the vet vote. the son of vice president joe biden h beau biden will join me live. he will talk about his dad's big debate coming up next week. that and much more coming your way in just moments. stick around. creamy spinach artichoke dip, crispy garlic chicken spring rolls. they're this season's must-have accessory. lean cuisine. be culinary chic. what a bargain! [ female announcer ]
jim, it's great to see you. i recommend the article to people. it really is great. this wrapped up this hour of "jansing & co." thomas roberts is up next. good morning. >>> good morning, everybody. the agenda next hour, we are expecting president obama to react to this stunning new jobs report showing the unemployment rate shopping to 7.8%. we are also going to hear live remarks from mitt romney on the campaign trail. both of the candidates facing off in virginia today....
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thank you jim. >> thank you governor, thank you mr. president. >> the next debate will be on thursday october 11th. for now from the university of denver, i'm jim lehrer, thank you and good night. >> that's the end of the first >> that's the end of the first presidential debate between governor romney of massachusetts and president obama. you see both men being greeted by their wives on stage. even this portion of the debate is negotiated ahead of time by the campaigns in terms of which members of their family will be joining them on stage. this is, these these are negotiated down to this level of detail. in terms of how the overall debate unfolded, i personally do not know who won this debate. i do feel that we saw this debate format die a very painful death on camera tonight. the contrast between the candidates was stylistic as much as substantive. president obama i think calm and basically explanatory tonight. governor romney, more hyper, and i don't mean that in a negative way, just sort of more amped, more assertive. and that mani
thank you jim. >> thank you governor, thank you mr. president. >> the next debate will be on thursday october 11th. for now from the university of denver, i'm jim lehrer, thank you and good night. >> that's the end of the first >> that's the end of the first presidential debate between governor romney of massachusetts and president obama. you see both men being greeted by their wives on stage. even this portion of the debate is negotiated ahead of time by the campaigns...
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i'm also curious how jim laird does in terms of neither one of the candidates have said what they're going to do in a second term. and neither has put meat on the bone. paul ryan says i don't have time to explain the budget plan. i think laird is going to be the interesting character. >> and lynn, the other side of the voters are sitting in jefferson county. what do you think they're trying to hear tonight that's going to put them off the fence? >> i think what they're looking for is an answer on the economy. will this make me decide this way or that way? and of course, the famous flubs. >> governor, i want to put a question. you were just saying, last time you were on my show, we had this conversation about democracy and how it's hard to ever take things away in a democracy. how would you ask that question to the candidates? >> what's the public capacity for pain? i'm old fashioned. i think the campaign should discuss big issues. democracy's not going to survive if we don't. we're boar reing 41 cents out of every dollar we spend. that can't end well. more taxes or less spending and
i'm also curious how jim laird does in terms of neither one of the candidates have said what they're going to do in a second term. and neither has put meat on the bone. paul ryan says i don't have time to explain the budget plan. i think laird is going to be the interesting character. >> and lynn, the other side of the voters are sitting in jefferson county. what do you think they're trying to hear tonight that's going to put them off the fence? >> i think what they're looking for...
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apparently clre mccaskill thinks we do, too, because she was very aggressive at the bate which en r against jim talen. she had a confidce and was much more ladylike in 2006. but in the debate friday she came on swinging and i think that's because she feels threatened." republicans are trying to ignore rpoersai est sexistomment. think it's best if the nrsc weighs in on these questions because we're so focused on the presidential." the nrcc spokesperson said, "decline to comment." it gets wors according to "the los angeles times" akin told supporters, "the first two minutes, wow, it's liksomebody l a wdcat ou tag she was just furious and attacking in every different direction which was a little bit of a surprise to us." you know, it's par for the course, from t candidate who said this -- >> it seems to me, first of all, frhauntaro doctors, that's really rare. if it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. >> of course, akin tried to apologize and now that republicans arstruggling to regain t senate, they are starting to throw their support behind the con
apparently clre mccaskill thinks we do, too, because she was very aggressive at the bate which en r against jim talen. she had a confidce and was much more ladylike in 2006. but in the debate friday she came on swinging and i think that's because she feels threatened." republicans are trying to ignore rpoersai est sexistomment. think it's best if the nrsc weighs in on these questions because we're so focused on the presidential." the nrcc spokesperson said, "decline to...
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jim, thank you for joining me. >> thank you for having me on. appreciate it. >> you had no political experience, jim, until you began your campaign. i'm sure your constituents want to hear what makes you qualified to serve in congress? >> i'm a business guy. i've created a lot of jobs. i understand the economy, budgets, how to get things done. obviously michele bachmann doesn't. so i'm prepared to go to congress and get things done, bring people together, make this economy work again and she doesn't. >> you just heard the congresswoman, though. how does your plan for the economy differentiate from hers? >> first and foremost we're not going to lower the minimum wage. that doesn't help anybody. what we need is good wage jobs. she's pledged to go to norquist and coke brothers. i'm pledging myself to the people of the sixth district. i know how to get a budget done. we need to be bipartisan about that, come together and talk reality. real solutions for the real problems. create good livable-wage jobs. i've created thousands of jobs my whole life. s
jim, thank you for joining me. >> thank you for having me on. appreciate it. >> you had no political experience, jim, until you began your campaign. i'm sure your constituents want to hear what makes you qualified to serve in congress? >> i'm a business guy. i've created a lot of jobs. i understand the economy, budgets, how to get things done. obviously michele bachmann doesn't. so i'm prepared to go to congress and get things done, bring people together, make this economy...
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two-minute statements, they're each going to get two minutes at the beginning of the subjects that jim leherer will introduce. and discussing not policing 30-second rebuttals and 60-second statements. none of that red light stuff with the clocks and all of that stuff. and when you're in mitt romney's position, where he's actually trying to hide some things, trying to hide the details of the deduction side of his tax plan, he's still hiding his tax returns. when you're that candidate who has things that you don't want to talk about, those very narrow rules are your friend. the red light is your friend. the very limited 30-second response, 60-second response works well for candidate who trying to dodge and trying to get away from things. president obama, i think is going to have an advantage in the way the non-rules are in this debate tonight. and i also think that mitt romney has come off a series of really easy debates. we have to remember, mitt romney triumphed in a republican presidential field that was the worst republican presidential field in the history of the republican party. t
two-minute statements, they're each going to get two minutes at the beginning of the subjects that jim leherer will introduce. and discussing not policing 30-second rebuttals and 60-second statements. none of that red light stuff with the clocks and all of that stuff. and when you're in mitt romney's position, where he's actually trying to hide some things, trying to hide the details of the deduction side of his tax plan, he's still hiding his tax returns. when you're that candidate who has...
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president's performance, it seemed like he just wanted to take what was presented whatever topic either jim herrer or governor romney brought up that's where the president was going to play defense and push back. he did not try to turn anything. i can't really explain why he didn't but it certainly didn't serve him well. there's a reason they've driven women's issue and the 47% and done it feb tifkly, why he thought the debate wasn't the place to drive those, i do not know. >> david brooks column in "the new york times" says that on wednesday night romney finally emerged from the fog, broke with the stereotypes of his party and long last began the process of offering a more authentic version of himself. susan? >> 34 days before the election. talk about waiting until the last minute to do so. you know, one of the things he did, mark made the point that maybe the move to the center wasn't quite as stark as some people are portraying it. wasn't this the tonal change we thought we would see last spring when he clenched -- >> where was the pivot. >> we kept waiting for which did not come until t
president's performance, it seemed like he just wanted to take what was presented whatever topic either jim herrer or governor romney brought up that's where the president was going to play defense and push back. he did not try to turn anything. i can't really explain why he didn't but it certainly didn't serve him well. there's a reason they've driven women's issue and the 47% and done it feb tifkly, why he thought the debate wasn't the place to drive those, i do not know. >> david...